Interview with Wei Jingsheng (on June 9, 2014 in his office/home in Fairmount Heights, Maryland, USA)

Here you find the Chinese text of the interview.

Interviewer (Helmut Opletal): My first question is, when you look back at the Democracy Wall Movement, the period when you participated yourself, how do you feel about it?

Wei Jingsheng: Actually, when I was in prison, I felt very happy, because I think that I had been quite successful during that time. My objective was – I don’t know about others – to push the Chinese people’s ideas on democracy and freedom, and to draw everyone’s attention to the crimes of the Communist Party. Both objectives were achieved. In fact, the impact of the Democracy Wall was even greater than I had anticipated, and it has affected the entire political situation in China. Conditions were very good at that time, because the officials at the top were not unanimous. Many of them had spent time in jail during the Cultural Revolution. They had also been persecuted by the Communist Party. So I think what we did at the Democracy Wall was better than all movements before taken together. Whether they were rightist or not, they had the same basic intention, that was to provide advice to the Communist Party, and doing it for the good of the Communist Party. We did not directly criticize the Communist Party, even during the Cultural Revolution when many individual officials were criticized, but not the Communist Party.

At the Democracy Wall, after our "Exploration" magazine had come out, it changed in a way that the Communist Party became the target. All my friends were talking why it was bad, and then it attracted the attention of the whole society, including many intellectuals and officials who had just been released from prison. Everyone started to reflect about these questions. As I had been born into a family of government officials, many old cadres and old Communists who had just come out of prison, even higher ranks, came up to me privately and said, your "Exploration" is very good, can you give us a copy? When we were young, we would have liked to do what you are doing now, but we failed to do it. Having just come out of prison, some had pondered all the way long what they had done before to make people live a better life, but why it was not even as good as before nowadays? So I think our kind of activities, writing articles and flyers, was very successful in causing big changes in the views of the Chinese. This later became the Democracy Movement. So I was always in a good mood when I was in prison. Even the police were surprised. They thought, "How can you be so happy all day long when other prisoners look sad?" But I thought I had been very successful and it was worth it. If you were planning something like this at that time, you couldn't escape the past; the risk of losing your head. But even later I didn’t die or lose my head, and I could still see the fruits of my success. So overall, the Democracy Wall Movement has been very successful, including what I did. It was successful and worthwhile.

Interviewer: Even today, don’t you think that some things might have failed, that you didn’t achieve your goals in some aspects?

Wei: No. At the time I thought that we all had to die once. Still we stirred things up and planted seeds in the minds of the people. The rest they would have to think themselves. That would not be my business anymore. It was hard to imagine living on. According to past experiences, it was impossible to survive a counter-revolutionary crime like ours. People who had committed much lighter crimes than me, who had just made suggestions to the party, were shot. I was directly criticizing the Communist Party, so how could I survive? I had thought about it beforehand. Some people hesitated, they said don’t be so extreme. People like Liu Qing and Wang Juntao have all advised me not to be so extreme and to be more measured in order to protect myself. But my views were different from theirs, maybe I knew the Communists better. Even if you try to be softer in what you do, they will not let you go. The Communist Party is not stupid, they know what you are really up to.

So I thought, since we already had exposed ourselves and had to die anyway, let’s just talk more clearly. I had this chance to speak out, and took this opportunity because the internal fighting in the Communist Party was very fierce then. Deng Xiaoping's group and Hua Guofeng's group were intensely fighting. They had no time to care about common people. So I thought I could buy some time. But when I just stuck out my head a little, I already got arrested. So I didn’t have much impact, right? But if you don't show your head, you won't have any impact either. To achieve something, you need to choose a good moment in order to maintain the momentum for some time. In fact, the duration was shorter than I had thought. They fought back and forth. If Deng Xiaoping won, I thought, it would still take a year for him to secure his position, right? But unexpectedly, they already arrested me after less than half a year, just a few months, three months. But generally speaking, the effect was better than I had imagined. I didn't expect that this seed could have such strong consequences after being planted into the minds of ordinary people. Throughout the 1980s, the pro-democracy movement continued until it became such a huge movement in 1989. So I think this seed that had been placed grew much better than I had expected. Of course, it was not just my idea. I know that many intellectuals at that time had similar views, some went even deeper than mine, and some remained maybe shallower. But there were many who thought this way. The problem was that not many dared to come out and talk, even those at the Democracy Wall. I felt very well then and I have never regretted anything I did. I think I did better that I had imagined, the results were very good.

Interviewer: When did you first come into contact with the idea and the concept of democracy?

Wei: The word “democracy” has never stopped being used in China, but the Communist Party was no longer willing to pronounce it. Under Mao, they talked about “great democracy”, so everyone knew this word "democracy", but the concept may not have been as thoroughly understood as in the West. Also for Westerners it took two or three centuries to evolve to where they are now. China maybe equals the early days of the West, Jean-Jacques Rousseau's era, when democracy meant that everyone could be the master of things.

Interviewer: When did you begin to doubt Mao Zedong’s ideas and those of the Communist Party? Your grew up in a communist family, and you became a Red Guard...

Wei: When I was a Red Guard, I was very young, only a teenager. I believed what I heard at school and at home. I was very naive and thought China was so great, the West very degenerate, and the people there were living in dire straits. I didn’t really understand things. At the very beginning, during the Cultural Revolution, young people were traveling around in China to connect with other groups. Mao created a new situation in order to divert the Red Guards from Beijing and have them going to all parts of the country to stir up trouble. I also went with them.

I also wrote my paragraph of this story and spread it around traveling. One particular experience happened in Gansu Province; I forgot the name of the small place where trains who had not been on time had to stop temporarily. The station building was very small, there were many beggars asking for something to eat. I did not like too much the food I had bought on the train, so what was left, I gave to the beggars who passed by. When I opened the carriage window, I saw a woman carrying a little boy, maybe her brother, so I handed the food to them. I poked my head outside and was relatively close, but when I saw her I was shocked. She didn't wear any clothes and was very dirty. You couldn't tell it from a distance, but when you were close you could see it. It was the same for the little boy, who had just a sack wrapped around him. I was very shocked. Other people on the train said that this was very common in the Northwest and they told me some similar stories. That's when I began developing some ideas. We had heard such stories before, but in school or on the radio and in newspapers, it had always sounded that everything was so good. How could this happen? Later, I paid close attention to such situations and started investigations.

In 1967 or at the end of 1966, politics in Beijing changed very quickly. We, the Red Guards who were the first to respond to Mao and admired Mao the most, were quickly abandoned by him. He began to cultivate more obedient ones. We were disobedient and had been rebels since the beginning. This kind of abandonment aroused our antipathy towards the Communist Party and towards Mao, … maybe not towards the Communist Party yet at that time. Of course, no one dared to directly criticize Mao Zedong or Jiang Qing [Mao’s “radical” wife]. Everyone knew that if you opposed Jiang Qing, you were also opposing Mao.

Interviewer: What year was that?

Wei: At the end of 1966. Then in early 1967, people from our Red Guard faction were arrested and sent to prison. Then we formed a large unit specifically opposing Jiang Qing, and then we were suppressed again. After the end of 1967, these factions were not very active any more. Except for the “Choir” [a radical Red Guard rebel group] left in Shanghai, the others were basically in a state of disbandment. Later, some small circles instigated that everyone should re-study Marxism-Leninism to see if Mao Zedong was wrong. From the results he proved wrong. It seemed that everyone felt from different angles that things were not as good as imagined before. We were all just kids, and we didn’t know much of the past. To study we started reading books, like Lenin’s or Stalin’s books. After reading them, we felt that Mao’s stuff was no different from theirs. When I read Marx's books again, I found many serious problems. There was also a view that since our democracy in China was so bad, what about democracy in the West? Some youngsters came from families of diplomats, including some high ranking officials, and they had access to internal books and publications [classified translations and articles on sensitive issues, restricted to limited elite groups]. What was reported in Western media one day, it was published in the “Reference Materials” [one of these restricted publications] the next day, two thick volumes a day. So these people still had some understanding of the situation outside. These “internal publications” were privately circulated around, and following discussions gradually led to forming ideas.

First, there seemed to be no difference between Mao and Marxism. Some differences certainly existed, but they were not fundamental. Marx had proposed a dictatorship of the proletariat. Both therefore advocated dictatorship; on this point, there was no difference with Mao Zedong.

The second point was about democracy. After a dictatorship of the proletariat had been implemented, how could there be democracy? Western democracy seemed no good. But although you could point to some shortcomings, it was better than here after all. Everyone compared and discussed this. I remember that in 1968, there were two tendencies among the children of cadres in Beijing: The first was that we should start to understand Chinese society better, as we did not really understand it very well and were not able to analyze it clearly in our debates. When we talked about suffering of the people, some pointed out that according to the papers things were all right, and how could this not be true? But everyone felt that something was wrong. I just told them that what I had seen was completely different. Everyone started discussing. It was in vogue at that time to go down to the grassroots and learn about the real situation in China. So many young people used the opportunity of “being sent to the countryside”. We also asked, how can we change the current situation? Many thought that we should join the army like our fathers, then we would be promoted quickly, and after having taken over control of the political power, we could change this state of affairs. I belonged to a minority, because I believed that the first thing was to understand Chinese society and then tell our findings to the people. If the common people understood that this country needed to change, then it would be possible to change. If ordinary people didn't support our changes, and we became high officials, I said, I don't know if we would change this country or this country would change us? These words sounded very ugly.

No one really thought about this at that time. Many years later only, in 1993 when I was paroled, these friends invited me for a dinner. During the meal, someone said that my prediction was right. We have all become officials, and people like Xi Jinping have become high officials at the top. But we were changed by this regime, rather than changing the regime. But opinions were differing. I had been sent to the countryside, become a soldier, then came back to be a worker, I was “worker, peasant, soldier” [ideals praised by Mao] in one, but this allowed me to understand China even better.

We are talking about the 1970s. After I was demobilized from the army, I was still observing society and waiting for an opportunity. I thought, if I wanted to do something, it might not be an instant success. It needed a certain amount of time, I should express my ideas first and let everyone deliberate them. Just with a few people thinking, it won't work. Only if everyone with a brain in this society reflects about it, it could become a general train of thought. This later turned into the the Democracy Movement of the 1980s.

Interviewer: Did you already participate in 1976?

Wei: That was the April 5th Movement. I lived in a circle that was relatively familiar with the behaviors of upper-level officials, so I didn’t think Zhou Enlai [the “reformist” prime minister who had died in January 1976] was a good person, and I didn’t think he was one of those in the Party who went to criticize Mao. Of course, many people participated in April 1976. They wanted to use this opportunity to attack Mao Zedong. But I thought time had not yet come. If one stepped forward, he would be arrested after just a few words. And they praised Zhou Enlai, but was he really so good or important?

Interviewer: Is that what you thought at the time?

Wei: Yes, he was just one of Mao Zedong’s hands. So firstly, I didn’t think it was necessary to take part, and secondly, I thought the movement would be suppressed soon anyway, and one won’t have much chance to speak out, so I didn’t participate. Even my mother found this strange and asked me why I didn't participate.

Interviewer: What were your views then at the end of 1978? Did you think, now the situation had changed, the time was ripe to join the pro-democracy movement? What was your reasoning?

Wei: My basic reasoning was that I thought people at the Democracy Wall, like Wang Juntao and Liu Qing, spoke too softly, they were still speaking for the Party.

Interviewer: Did they already take part in the debates then in 1978...

Wei: They all came earlier than me. They were the ones who started founding the Democracy Wall. Huang Xiang was the first, later Liu Qing, Wang Juntao and others emerged. Of course, they all had their own objectives. I can say now that at that time they were still wanted to discuss problems inside the Communist Party circles, that it just needed some leaders to be changed, preferably to be replaced by us, so that we could do some positive things. Those were not very mature ideas, but I knew their state of mind. I just thought their words were too gentle, like taking off boots that were itching a bit.

Interviewer: How did this moderate stance show?

Wei: For example, when they said the Communist Party was good, but some individuals were bad, or something in the system was not so good, and we should consider some changes. They all spoke in this tone and did not criticize the Party outright. Including people like Ren Wanding, who’s Human Rights Alliance was the largest organization at the Democracy Wall at that time. But they only said that we should respect human rights. As you know, Karl Marx, the progenitor of the communist parties, has also called for attention to human rights; so they did not say more, they did not point to all the damages caused by the Communists. At that time, Deng Xiaoping still had a positive attitude toward the Democracy Wall. The Democracy Wall had helped him a lot. Otherwise he might not have been able to win the struggle against Hua Guofeng. The Democracy Wall was his big card. One reason was that ordinary people supported me. But I was still not too keen to participate in politics after the Cultural Revolution. It was too much about a certain kind of politics. My father’s generation had been involved in the Communist Party all their lives, and in the end they were miserable and often imprisoned for more than ten years. So I didn't want to participate, but I went there to look every day, and finally something stimulated me, so I made up my mind to write my piece.

After the Third Plenary Session of the 11th Central Committee of the Party, an American journalist named Robert Novak was very active in Beijing. I think he represented the Associated Press, a very large agency. He was in constant contact with top level cadres. When Deng Xiaoping invited him for a talk, Deng’s basic tune was that those young people were very good, it was important that they cared about national affairs, but it was more important that they returned to factories and offices “to grasp the revolution and promote production” [a saying of Mao], while the big issues of the nation would be taken care of by the government. Then Novak was so happy that he hurried to the Democracy Wall to tell everyone about it.

After a meeting of activists at the Democracy Wall the next day, they did not only post this information, but also a notice telling, since Comrade Xiaoping has said this, we may all retreat and leave the Democracy Wall. We can prepare to go back “to grasp the revolution and promote production”.

Seeing this, I got very angry, like many other people in Beijing. Even an old worker in our company felt taken aback and went there to see it. After reading it, he came back and commented: "These Chinese people are really boneless. After talking for two days without allowing you to speak, they want to retreat. There is no hope for China. These intellectuals are just weaklings." I felt very sad after hearing this. How can Chinese have no backbones? China is so big. Deng Xiaoping just says one sentence, and everyone would retreat. I thought I couldn't retreat. I pondered all night and all day. But I knew that once I take action, there was no way out. There was a 99 percent chance I would be executed. But I thought how could it be that not one among us Chinese would stand up? It was time to make a sacrifice. So I wrote that "Fifth Modernization" in one night. After I finished writing, I personally went to the Democracy Wall to post it. The posting was beyond my expectation, but maybe it was also what I had expected? That evening and also in the early morning, many people came to read it. There was a long-distance bus terminal at the Xidan intersection where many passengers changed buses, and the flow of people was very large. That’s why everyone went there to post dazibaos. When I went to see it, many people were reading my poster, which made me very happy. Later, I added my phone number on it and a note that said that people interested in continuing to act could come to see me. I included my name and phone number. I knew that I couldn't hide. China's security police was quite strong, and if was unlikely to hide for someone who posted dazibaos there. So I didn’t plan to hide, and even gave my phone number.

The next day, a dozen young people came to see me. They were all dissenters from the Democracy Wall. Why were they dissidents? They also disliked those moderates, they thought they were too soft, and did not want to work with them, but oppose them. I told them, fine, let’s sit together. We met at our home. I said, let’s just discuss it, you need not decide immediately. If you want to work with me, you have to be prepared that you might lose your head. I'll give you three days to think about it. In the end, only three of them were willing to do this. I didn’t hold it against the others. The could still be friends and help us a bit without becoming our members. Of course, they would stay with us in the future.

Interviewer: Did you think of the term "modernization" yourself?

Wei: Yes, I thought about it myself.

Interviewer: What made you think about this?

Wei: Talking about the Four Modernizations, I tried to say that there was a fifth one that was even more important. Without this modernization, the others would be a fake.

Interviewer: Did you spend a lot of time thinking about this term?

Wei: No, it was just a flash of inspiration, a catchword that could make a headline. How to attract attention? There were many posters at the Democracy Wall. A lot of people just read the titles and then carried on looking at the other texts. They didn’t have much time, maybe only a few minutes to change buses. I considered that many people would just take a brief look. So I needed a heading that immediately attracted their attention. The "Four Modernizations" were being talked about every day in the papers and on the radio. So I said let’s do a fifth modernization. At the Democracy Wall you find the fifth modernization, and many people got interested. Attention, there is also a fifth modernization. Take a look.

I went to look again the next day. Wow, there was a huge crowd. People at the back shouted: "Brothers in the front, please read it out for us, we can't see much in the back." I had written my text only on small sheets of paper, four pages, and the characters were only this big [showing the size with his fingers], just a little bigger than normally. I felt great when I heard the people behind me shouting: "Brothers in the front please read it out for us.” The Democracy Wall suddenly became lively again. This was a reason why Liu Qing and Wang Juntao did not leave. Because the Democracy Wall had suddenly became animated again, and they felt embarrassed to leave. I also knew that my article was not according to their thinking. It was to make people not to leave, but to march forward. We couldn't just complain about injustices. The majority were like petitioners, few talked about freedom or democracy. Once the atmosphere became lively again, they couldn't leave, that’s how the Democracy Wall slowly formed.

Later, our "Exploration" journal made the suggestion that organizations from the Democracy Wall should get together and hold joint meetings. If anything happened in the future, we could discuss it together. At our first meeting of this Joint Conference, we couldn't agree on everything because there were actually quite different opinions. Some people even said that the Communist Party itself was good; we just had to get rid of those corrupt officials. That was the tone of the Cultural Revolution. Anyway, there were various theories. The only agreement reached was that we were all active at the Democracy Wall, and we had all taken some risks at different degrees. If under the rule of the Communists, something were not run by the Communist Party, there would be dangers. This is still true today. If you are not a Communist and organize a media privately, they will quickly get rid of you. Therefore, they only agreement reached was that no matter who run into a problem at the Democracy Wall, who was arrested, etc., everyone would unanimously make appeals for his release. This was the only agreement reached. I agreed, and at least we had decided to sit together one evening every week to discuss and make some suggestions. It was a good idea, so this Joint Conference was maintained until I got arrested, and it stopped when the Democracy Wall was finally closed down. So this Joint Conference was very important.

Interviewer: So you met once a week?

Wei: Yes. Even the smaller groups should send someone, when their leader could not come himself. He should send a deputy.

Interviewer: So when you held your discussions that time, there were already differences and arguments?

Wei: There were huge differences, basically at every meeting. Sometimes we sent a representative because there were only four of us and we were quite busy, we also had to talk to foreign embassies and reporters, so we didn’t have enough time. Sometimes I just couldn't go myself. Going there, I would often say things that they didn’t like to hear. I was good at debating; generally no one could talk me down. So for the most part no one contradicted me, although many disagree with what I said.

For example, there were many so-called petitioners at that time. One very important person who is still in Beijing, was a woman named Fu Yuehua. She supported those petitioners. When we interviewed some, we got to meet her. I just said, if you have any problems, tell us, or at least let the petitioners themselves tell us. We immediately put up big-character posters supporting the petitioners, appealing for them, etc. But the problem was that Fu Yuehua got arrested very soon, earlier than me. She was arrested in February. [Editor's note: On January 8, 1979, the third anniversary of Zhou Enlai's death, Fu Yuehua led thousands of petitioners to demonstrate in Tian’anmen Square. She was arrested on January 9th.] After her arrest, I immediately proposed at the Joint Conference that we should appeal for her release. But no one agreed, saying that she was different from us and a no-goodnik. Intellectuals sometimes feel that they are superior to others, maybe inferior to Communist Party members, but superior to ordinary people. But many of these petitioners were also cadres and intellectuals. Among them, the one that impressed me most, later invented an input system for computers, the five-corner [four-corner?] method.  No one uses it now. But he was the first. Although he had invented this, he felt being suppressed at his workplace, so he came to petition. I was deeply impressed by him. The others I can’t remember.

When Fu Yuehua had been arrested, they didn't react. But I made the suggestion that those who wanted to take part should do so. We just shouldn’t create trouble and conflict, and then it should be ok. All the organizations remained silent, but our "Exploration" magazine took the lead, and I personally stood in the front. Eventually some people from other organizations felt that they should also care, and they came together to participate.

Five or six of us went to the Beijing Public Security Bureau to meet somebody. They were frightened and didn't know how to deal with it. Because at that time, the upper levels didn’t know what this could turn into, and the lower levels knew even less. Moreover, some people who were openly criticizing the Party did not get arrested yet. So the Public Security Bureau did not dare to stir up trouble with us. They talked to us for a long time saying they couldn't handle this matter, and we should go to the Municipal Party Committee. So we went there and had to debate endlessly. They didn't realize that we were secretly recording the conversations. A foreign reporter had given me a tape recorder. [Editor's note: According to Emmanuel Bellefroid, it was him – a cultural officer of the French Embassy – who had given Wei Jingsheng a small recorder.] At that time, such a small recorder was a very advanced item. I didn’t exist in China, even less than a “big brick” [a big cassette player]. Afterwards, we transcribed the conversations we had secretly recorded on big-character posters, telling what the Public Security Bureau and the Municipal Party Committee had told us. This was very embarrassing for them.

Moreover, at the Municipal Party Committee, we had raised another issue, that we wanted our magazines to be registered so that they could not say that we are illegal. It was me who had come up with all these ideas. Observing for many years, I knew the methods of the Communist Party how to deal with illegal publications. We said we wanted to register to be legal. Then a director from the Municipal Party Propaganda Department came and said: I also don’t know where to register. I answered it was him who had to tell us where to register. He still said he didn't know. So I asked: Where do you register your party newspapers? He said: None of us have registered. It was all recorded by us. Therefore, I have never been charged later with illegal publication, because there was no publishing law at that time. He said that there were no legal provisions and they also had not registered. I asked then, with regard to freedom of speech, we could say whatever we wanted to, right? Since there was no registration, there were no restrictions, and whatever we did was legal.

Later we published all this, which also put pressure on them. In the end, also when they destroyed the Democracy Wall, they never gave a reason why it was illegal. They didn't dare to say. But the whole country knew it. All this had a positive effect for the subsequent release of Fu Yuehua. She might have been sentenced to a much heavier punishment, but later she was only condemned to three years of reeducation through labor, not even a formal verdict. So it had helped her. What we did impressed common people a lot. The Democracy Wall magazines became extremely popular. The place was so crowded; sometimes with 20,000 to 30,000 people at a time. We also gave regular lectures there. When we published the second and third issues, we had to stand on the wall to sell the journals, because there was no space underneath. We stood on the wall, many people wanted to buy a copy and handed us money, but there was not even time to give change.

Interviewer: Did no one tell you at that time that you should be careful because you might be arrested?

Wei: When the Democracy Wall became more popular, many activists began to change their minds. Liu Qing, Wang Juntao and others became more daring in what they said. They began to think, if Wei with his radical comments was not arrested, then everyone should be safe. Just before I was detained, the Public Security Ministry sent a car every day to follow me. On the first day it was a limousine, which was used for high-ranking officials at ministerial level only. When they were followed me, I found the solution to ride a bicycle passing through narrow lanes where they couldn't get in. The next day they sent a Jeep with a bicycle on the back. When I entered an alley, they followed me on the bike.

After two days, I told Liu Qing [Wei’s colleague at “Exploration”] and the other organizations at the Democracy Wall to continue doing a good job in the future. I burned all my documents, including diaries and correspondence, so as not to endanger others. It’s a serious problem in China that leaving a lot of documented evidence will incriminate others. Although some things may not be so serious, you don't know the consequences beforehand. So I burned everything and mentioned this to everyone at the Joint Conference. Liu Qing said: “No, how could it be that serious? You are being overly vigilant. There were still people who kept saying to me, how can there be so many spies around me? Wei, you are too nervous.”

Later I told Liu Qing, if you don’t believe it, I will take you to see yourself that cars follow me every day. In your small alley, have you ever seen such a car? He came and walked with me to the intersection just outside this alley to take a look. I said, “look at the two cars in front, they are just like this Jim [Jeep?], why should one drive into a small alley in a normal residential area like yours? That's the car that follows me. If you don't believe, watch when I later leave. It will definitely follow me. ” Liu Qing began to believe me a little, but still not too much. He just told everyone that I had said this, and that everyone should just watch out. But he didn't take it too seriously. They were also arrested, but a bit later. Only when I was detained, they did their clean-up just in time. But I was worried because I had received information from the Security Ministry that they had already put together three lists. The largest contained more than 80 names, and the smallest 37. Even if 37 people were arrested, the Democracy Wall would not exist anymore. Also if they just arrested all the leaders like me, it would not be able to exist. The Communists understood this very well. In ancient times, it was said that to capture a thief, capture the king first. Arresting the leaders was an alert that they would all be arrested, so this was a reminder.

Later, we held a small meeting of our "Exploration" staff. Among the four main members, I proposed two things to everyone. First, I was prepared to draw fire. According to Deng Xiaoping's temper – I knew his temper relatively well – he had probably banged the table in anger, "Catch him!" He definitely wanted to catch me first. My arrest would definitely cause some reactions from the people and from Chinese society. We had already contacts with many foreign journalists; many of them had become friends. So I said that the first decision was to draw the fire on myself. Do you agree or not? I said that the first person Deng Xiaoping wanted to arrest was me, for sure. The second was that when I decided to write this article, it already meant that I was about getting burned. You guys, just run away as fast as you can and wherever you can. Hide in the countryside, but it would be best to escape abroad, sneak across the border to Hong Kong or something. All this could work. In the end, a resolution should have been passed, that if one was unable to escape and arrested, he should put all the blame on me alone. But they disagreed and said how could this be? I answered that this was very simple. It’s better if one person dies than four people. Because thought I was definitely going to die, I would not be able survive. But as long as the green hills were left, there was no need to worry about running out of firewood. You guys can still do things if you stay. Because I was too prominent, they would not be able to let me go. If you pin everything on me, you may be able to escape. I had prepared these two decisions, but they disagreed. So I said, I have to be a dictator for once, that’s it. You do as I say.

The article I wrote that mentioned Deng Xiaoping’s name was called “Democracy or a New Dictatorship.” I had already told them to run off, when I was writing that piece, but in the and none of them managed to escape, and they were all arrested.

Interviewer: Was this article written in February?

Wei: In March, I was arrested on March 29th, so I probably wrote it on March 24th or 25th. After drafting it, it became exactly what I had expected. Deng Xiaoping was so angry that he said I should be arrested first.

Interviewer: I will talk about this article later, but I want to ask you something before: What did your parents think when you participated in all this?

Wei: My mother had already passed away in 1977.

Interviewer: But your father was still alive? What did he think of what you did?

Wei: My dad was there. He did not directly interfere with my actions. And I still lived with him. Upstairs we printed our things. It was still his home, but he didn’t interfere. He talked to me several times, he mainly said one thing, when I told him, “Look at the Democracy Wall, there hasn’t been any crackdown yet.” I had just finished writing “The Fifth Modernization”, but he quickly knew, because he had his own channels. He said: "What you are doing is very dangerous; you will lose your head. Do you know that?" I said: "Not only do I know, but I am also prepared to lose my head," adding: "Inside the central government there are different views on issues." Because my father and Chen Yun [a leading senior reformer] had a very good personal relationship, I asked him if he could forward a letter to Chen Yun for me. My dad answered, "Don't even think about it. It's impossible. If I send him a letter, it's like harming him. You guys are making too much trouble." That was basically his attitude. But he didn’t interfere either. I have mentioned before that many veteran cadres, after they had been persecuted during the Cultural Revolution, did not have a good opinion of the Communist Party. In particular, their views on Deng Xiaoping were not very good; they had not been good in the past either. Many did not like Deng Xiaoping for how he acted.

Interviewer: So how did you come to directly attack Deng Xiaoping?

Wei: There were two considerations: I wanted to draw the fire on me and thus rescue other people at the Democracy Wall. If they arrested me, there would be a lot of pressure from international public opinion, definitely also from the domestic opinion. Deng Xiaoping would have to stop. Couldn’t the others just run away then? It worked, the others did run away later. They were not completely wiped out until 1981, this was quite a long time. This is why the public impact became so widespread later. This was a success, right?

The second point was that I knew many cadres at the upper level of the Communist Party. They had just come out of prison. They all had ideas, at least one idea from one person. They did not necessarily agree with what we were doing, but they did not want Deng Xiaoping to become another Mao Zedong. Given Deng Xiaoping's character, if he became a second Mao Zedong, we might not be able to survive. Mao was a relatively tolerant person and he valued emotions. Even when he punished people, he did not want them to die and left a way for them to survive. You can realize Deng Xiaoping's character just by watching the Tian’anmen Massacre. He was capable of anything and had a very cruel character. Some old Communists knew that. So I took the risk. I mentioned him by name and said he wanted to be a dictator. Everyone immediately became alerted. The debate in the Politburo was so intense that Deng Xiaoping did not dare to call a vote. He didn't dare because he knew that he was in the minority, and others opposed to it. The two extremes were that Deng Xiaoping said that this person must be killed, and Chen Yun demanded this person to be released.

Two people at two extremes. There were various opinions in the middle, but more supported Chen Yun and fewer Deng Xiaoping. Deng did not dare to make a decision. The Politburo meeting lasted for three days, and they argued about this matter for three days. In the end, Peng Zhen [a former mayor of Beijing] and Li Xiannian [senior revolutionary] came out to smooth things over, saying that they should not even hold a Politburo meeting over the matter of such a young man. Each should get half of his wish fulfilled. Comrade Xiaoping said, this person deserved to be killed, we give him a harsh sentence; Comrade Chen Yun said, this person should be released, we give a harsh sentence, but not the death penalty. In the end, my life was saved this way. It was decided by the Politburo, by Deng Xiaoping and Chen Yun...

Interviewer: So this whole affair was about you?

Wei: Yes, about my case. Then the case went to the Beijing Municipal Secretary, Lin Hujia at that time.

Interviewer: How did you find out about these discussions within the Politburo?

Wei: In China, you know, there are no airtight walls. At that time, I couldn't have found these things out of course, but afterwards. All their secretaries were their children, and I was in the same circles when they were young. So how could I not get to know things?

Interviewer: So you found out later?

Wei: Yes, I got this information. I was paroled in 1993. Half a year later, the people who had told my brother first, and the person who later told me in person, had all been present at the meeting taking notes. Of course I found out then. It was the same the second level, when the case went to the Beijing Municipal Party Committee, and the Politburo had decided to impose a heavy sentence, but without death. This guy – a secretary of the Municipal Party – was also in difficulty. Whatever he did, either Deng Xiaoping was dissatisfied or Chen Yun. He hesitated and thought, what does a heavy sentence mean? Later, his secretary had dinner with me and confirmed this story. The secretary said that according to our new criminal law, fifteen years was the maximum sentence for someone not put to death. This is how I received the fifteen years. Even the judge didn't know. During my trial, or the day before, the judge called me and asked, how I thought me case would end? I said, I should be considered innocent. He said that was impossible. So I asked him what he thought. He stretched out his fingers and said, no matter what, five years seemed a heavy sentence. In the end, when the decision was about to be made in court, it adjourned at the end of the proceedings, to discuss before the final judgment. Originally, the court was adjourned for half an hour. The bailiffs, who all had a very good relationship with me, bought me food and said, "Eat quickly, so that you will have finished in half an hour and you will be able to hold on." As a result, I was nervous for the whole noon. When I was done eating, he told me, lie down on the sofa for a while and take a rest. I asked what happened. He said, didn't you hear the quarrel next door? The superiors wanted to impose a sentence, but the judge disagreed and felt that the sentence was too harsh. There was a quarrel which lasted all afternoon.

It took three hours before the court resumed. The judge looked very unhappy when the trial re-started. The sentence was announced quickly, fifteen years. Later, during my second trial, one of the chief bailiffs, who was also a bailiff at the time, told me many stories. He said, "You killed that old Luo." I said, "Is it Judge Luo?" He said yes. He was transferred to a sinecure position after that, where he had nothing to do. When they originally choose him to preside my trial, this meant that he was the most important judge at that time. But his opinion was that the sentence was unfair. He was an old “rightist” and ideologically more inclined to our side. But as a judge, he was obliged to do things as the government wanted. But he felt that my sentence was too heavy. So this is another small episode.

My judge, including my lawyer, they all were made to suffer in some way, as this bailiff told me later. These stories are quite strange. But all in all, I had achieved two goals in writing this article: first, the Democracy Wall was not dead, and second, I was not dead.

Interviewer: When you wrote this articles "Do you want democracy or a new dictatorship?" which talked about Deng Xiaoping, did it cause an immediate reaction?

Wei: They arrested me within three days. I knew that people like Liu Qing would definitely jump up, so I didn’t go to see them at all. I knew they would spring from their seats. They are still saying today that Wei was too extreme back then, and it hurt all of us. Of course, what would I wrote at that time, must have unsettled them. Liu Qing was still a very upright person at that time. When I was detained, our "Exploration" people immediately went to the Joint Conference and demanded a resolution to ask for my release. But they disagreed. Moreover, someone from the Public Security Bureau spread the information that Wei Jingsheng's arrest was not an issue of political views, but of selling intelligence. [Wei was accused of divulging details of China’s military plans in the war with Vietnam to foreign reporters.] He was arrested because he sold state secrets. So the representatives of various organizations did not want to take a position. But people like Liu Qing and Bei Dao were still very determined to pass a resolution, including some others who were not leaders, a large group including Li Nan and Yang Jing. They were still very determined to support me at that time. Even Xu Wenli locked his mimeograph machine at the home of some member from his organization. Despite the disagreements, Liu Qing and Bei Dao decided to go forward anyway. Later, they tried to obtain more information, but in vain.

Finally came the critical moment. When I was being tried, the police knew that I had a tough personality and I would definitely not give in. So they wanted to tightly block any news. As this was a public trial, they wanted to it “as if”. They still wanted people to attend, and they found a very large venue that could hold four to five hundred people. It was the largest hall in their Beijing court. Attendees were not allowed to bring pens or paper, and there was the rule that they were not allowed to speak about the trial afterwards. So what could Liu Qing and the others do? During the night  they went to see Qu Leilei [one of the “Stars” artists who worked for the state TV] and gave him the tape recorder I had left behind, our only weapon at the time. They told him that no matter what, he had to find a way to record the trial when he managed to be there. Qu Leilei held a relatively important position at the time. He was the team leader of a special group and camera crew of China’s Central Television with a cameraman and four or five people. He was trusted because the heads of CCTV had a good relationship with his father. Everyone was being searched before entering. Pencils and other things had to be left behind. No records were allowed, except for CCTV.

Qu hid the tape recorder in the tool box. When they saw it, they said nothing because it was CCTV. So he quietly brought the tape recorder in and recorded all my defense statements in court. After recording it, he quietly brought it out. This was the defense speech that should become famous. I received an honorary doctorate from New York University on the basis that this was the best piece of self-defense in the world. After bringing it out, colleagues transcribed it overnight, and went to the Democracy Wall to post it. It immediately became a sensation. Deng Xiaoping got so angry that he called the police to arrest them right away. The posting had been there for a while, but Liu Qing was not present. But two other people were there, one of them was Hei Dachun, a relatively well-known poet now. Do you know him?

Interviewer: Yes.

Wei: A quite famous poet. They detained them both. But Liu Qing said, this was not okay, because it was him who had done this. That time, he tried to learn from Wei Jingsheng: A good man should shoulder the responsibility in order not to harm others. He ran to the Public Security Bureau and asked to be taken instead of Hei Dachun and the other. So he was arrested too. The sentence was not harsh at that time; it was two or three years of reeducation through labor. So Liu Qing was still doing very well.

At that point, organizations involved in the Democracy Wall were not willing to give me support, but many individuals in these organizations were willing to help. The result was very fast. During one night, the entire long recording was converted into text. Everyone sat there and listened word by word, which was not easy. Then it was quickly written into a big-character poster and posted the next morning. It created a sensation and got widely known across the country. I think this produced very good publicity. Liu Qing was one who did a good job that time, also Bei Dao. Bei Dao somehow took possession of the mimeograph machine that belonged to "Beijing Spring", and hurried with it to Liu Qing's home to print the transcript there. They all spent the whole night printing, printing, and finally distributing it. Once it had been out, Public Security couldn't do much anymore, they surprisingly were not able to trace anyone.

Interviewer: Did the "April 5th Forum" publish anything?

Wei: No. No organization was willing to do it. I'm talking only about individuals like Bei Dao. As the leader of "Today", which had passed a resolution not to engage in this matter, he would have also been bound by that. But printing required a mimeograph machine, so he stole one and put it in Liu Qing's home. As for Liu Qing, the "April 5th Forum" had also decided that they wouldn’t participate, but adding what people did at home, was their own business. These were all actions of individuals, not one organization had spoken out on the matter. You can see, the political atmosphere was very tense at that time. Later everyone said that my trial set many precedents in China's judicial system. After I had been formally charged, I was sentenced to fifteen years. No political prisoner after me was sentenced to more than fifteen years. As I was not executed, no political prisoners after me would be sentenced to death. The so-called vandalism, smashing and looting after June 4th, was something different. There was no death penalty for purely political prisoners, and my case set the precedent.

Interviewer: When you were in prison, could you still know how the Democracy Movement outside continued to develop? Did you receive any news?

Wei: There was little information, very little. If it had been someone else, there might have been no news at all. But those of us, who have lived under the Communists, could find some ways. For example, for one who had to stay one to two years, it was not even allowed to read newspapers, so of course I didn’t know anything. But when police questioned and interrogated me, they also had to say something. Through these conversations, they would inadvertently leak information. For example, among the four members of "Exploration" at the Democracy Wall, it seemed that only I was arrested and finally sentenced. The others, at least, were not sentenced. This I learned through my interrogation. When I had already been sentenced, other prison inmates would come and tell me how they admired me. "Ah, Wei Jingsheng, I heard from some guy that the Democracy Wall has been moved to the Yuetan Park." So I knew that they did not completely close it down, but gave it a new place. So indirectly I received little bits of information, of course it was all piecemeal, nothing major.

Interviewer: So how did you think about all this? Having to stay in jail for such a long time, what would happen once you got out?

Wei: When the trial started, I originally thought it would be a death penalty. But when the judge said fifteen years, I was so happy that I started shaking. The two bailiffs quickly supported me and said, "Wei, where there's life there's hope." They tried to encourage me. I said: That's not what I meant. I feel very happy that my life has been spared. I originally thought it would be a death penalty, or at least a death sentence with reprieve, and with Deng Xiaoping behind, he would certainly want me dead in the end. But with a sentence of fifteen years, you would not die. I saved my life, and I am very happy. So in the first year or two, I remained quite happy. But fifteen years, I gradually started to think about things. What will happen in the future? Later I wrote a letter to Peng Zhen. He ordered that I should be allowed to read newspapers, write letters, etc. Of course, I couldn't write to outsiders, only write to some big shots. So most of my letters were written to people who had something to say.

After being able to read newspapers, I got more information. I also started thinking about things outside. Of course I couldn't do anything. The blockade in the prison was very strict; I could not interact with anyone. So strict, that it was impossible for anyone to pass on any news to me. No one was allowed to talk to me. But I remember one time, not long after I had been sentenced, when I was transferred to prison. There was a young man whose father was the deputy director of the Beijing Public Security Bureau. He had come there directly after being demobilized from the army and worked as a small police officer. He was quite courageous and told me that he was not allowed to talk to Wei Jingsheng. But he was curious and came to chat with me, but only a short while. On the third day, I was transferred outside Beijing, to a very bad place. It was Deng Xiaoping who had ordered this, saying it didn't matter whether his father was a deputy head, he still couldn't save me. So the rules were very strict and no one was allowed to talk to me. Of course, there was a method behind this. If no one talks to you for a long time, you will gradually develop problems. People like Wang Guangmei [the wife of the persecuted former state president Liu Shaoqi] were driven crazy in this way.

I had interviewed Wang Guangmei some time before this, and written a well-known article. Now not many people paid attention to it, including Westerners. But it it was widely circulated in China. It was called "The Bastille of the Twentieth Century". [actually "The Bastille of the Twentieth Century - Qincheng Prison No. 1"]. You must have read it? That article talks on the story of Wang Guangmei. So I knew about this method. When I thought it’s been too long, I told myself, I don’t want to become crazy like Wang Guangmei, the damage would be too heavy, right? The Communists are terrible. If they don’t kill you, they make you crazy. Isn’t it more cruel if one is made to destroy himself like Wang Xizhe did? [In the early 70s, Wang was a member of the Li Yizhe Group in Guangzhou, calling for socialist democracy and the rule of law, then active in the Democracy Movement] It stinks, the story of Wang Xizhe. [Wei is probably referring to the fact that later in exile Wang has defended some of Mao's theories.]

I became very nervous then and wanted to think of ways to relieve myself like making a scientific invention. But when you suddenly realize that such thinking occupies you even while eating or sleeping, you have to change this quickly. Write poetry or study history. I had originally been interested in history. When I was young, I had a wide range of hobbies, anything except politics. But there was nothing else at that time. I have not learned any foreign languages, only Russian in middle school. In order to maintain my ability to speak it, I read aloud texts from a tattered Russian book every day. So there were rumors outside that Wei Jingsheng's Russian was very good, but that was a mere rumor. I actually didn't know a word, I just recited phrases. After two or three years, when I was moved to Qinghai province, I found that I couldn't speak it anymore. I had kept it in my mind, but my tongue could not articulate it, I spoke very slowly.

When I arrived in Qinghai, the environment became a little more relaxed. The policemen were also bored and felt isolated, and they came to chat with me. In the end, even people from the Justice Bureau chatted with me when they turned up to the place for meetings. Everybody liked to chat with me.

Interviewer: Why did they take you to Qinghai?

Wei: This is another story. Deng Xiaoping strongly wanted me to die, but due to the disagreement of many people in the Party, he could not take action directly. But he did some very embarrassing things, so that even the police were disgusted by that. When I entered prison, he issued an order that the treatment of Wei Jingsheng and other political prisoners – there was only me at that time – should be no better than that of ordinary criminal inmates. According to the Chinese understanding, if it cannot be higher, then it can only be lower. So among criminals, I was at the lowest level. There were many types of treatment in prison, at first the prison in Beijing didn't know how to deal with it. So they put me on death row, into a cell for prisoners condemned to death.

I stayed there for eight months. Even the squad leader or police captain of the death row prisoners came to me and said: "Wei, why do you keep staying here? We’ve had a rule from the 1950s that prisoners on death row cannot be kept here for more than half a year. Otherwise this will be considered abuse." Because the environment inside was very bad. I replied, "I don’t want to stay? It is you who put me here. Otherwise I would leave immediately. Why should I want to stay in your death row?" He said, "Then why don't you write to the top?" I said: "You don't let me have paper or pen, how can I write a letter?" He answered: "Ok, you can come to my office and write it." So I wrote a letter to Peng Zhen complaining angrily. I don’t have this letter anymore, I could not keep it then. After I had finished writing it in his office, he took it away directly. I was not allowed to keep a copy.

After he passed the letter on, I was quickly transferred back to a detention center, within about two weeks. It was not back to a regular prison, but the conditions were much better. After having been transferred to the detention center, I wrote to them again saying I wanted to read newspapers and other things. After just a week or two, I received this permission. That made me think I should write some more, and I did write to them again, including to Hu Yaobang telling him that they were too cowardly putting a young man like me into prison and treating me like this, leaving me in a detention center, not in a regular prison. In a prison, at least my family could come and see me, as they were not allowed to visit me at the detention center. I also was not allowed to smoke, which would be possible in a prison. That’s what I asked for, and I was later transferred to a regular prison.

After some time in the prison, my health deteriorated. I discovered that I had a heart problem, so I asked to see a doctor. They told me that there were doctors in the prison. But prisons doctors did not actually treat people. Their main job was to verify that the police were treating the prisoners correctly. So the prison doctor told me, "You're fine, I just make an electrocardiogram." I got up and looked at it and asked the doctor, what he had just done. The doctor said he had made an electrocardiogram. I asked for the results, and the doctor repeated, it was all fine. But in fact, the ground wire was not even connected. I was trained as an electrician and saw it right away. "You didn't even connect the ground wire. What kind of electrocardiogram did you do?" He said, "Don't worry, are you a doctor or am I the doctor? No problem, there are the results, we have evidence, no problem." I think, a lot of the evidence in the CCP’s prisons comes this way. Even a fake one counts as evidence.

I didn’t react to this, I just continued writing letters. I remember a letter that I wrote to Peng Zhen, who then was still chairman of the Legal Affairs Committee of the National People’s Congress. In fact, from the early days of liberation, Peng Zhen was in charge of the judiciary. He was responsible for putting up the entire system. Because I was disobedient, my instructor came up to me and said, "Do you know what kind of place this is?" I answered, "I know." He said, "This place is a dragon, and you have to help me control it. It is a tiger, and you have to squat in front of me." I said: "I won't, I won't squat. Things should be in accordance with the law, you do whatever you want." I was very familiar with the law. He said: "Wei, please give me a little face. Let me tell you the truth. Peng Zhen has set up the rules for the entire judicial system. He was squatting in your room, and he also had to abide by them [during the Cultural Revolution when he was also imprisoned]. He himself had set these rules, and he also had to abide by them. Hu Yaobang had also squatted in that house. Wu Han [a writer that became an early victim of the Cultural Revolution] had died in that house. Don't you think everyone..." I said: "I don't care, it was a lawless time, but don't you all respect the rule of law now?" That’s how I quarreled with him.

Later, when I found out that I had a heart disease, I wrote another letter to Peng Zhen: "You were in prison yourself. You know how difficult it is not receiving treatment even if you are sick. Now that I am sick, is it still the same as during the Cultural Revolution?" So he issued an order for me to go to the Public Security Hospital. Although within this system, it was considered an outside hospital. I still remember the doctor I went to see. I had an examination and did an electrocardiogram. After that, he told me directly that I had a coronary heart disease and should be careful. The policeman who accompanied me had his eyes wide open. Because according to the rules, a doctor who saw a prisoner was not allowed to tell the results directly, he could only tell them to the police. But this doctor probably held sympathies for us, so he told me directly.

Many years later, when I was arrested for the second time, already in 1994, I asked to see a doctor again, and was assigned to go to the police hospital again. So in the afternoon, they got off work early and kicked everyone else out from the hospital, leaving only a few doctors there who should deal with me. After the electrocardiogram examination was over, the doctor who had done it said, "Wei, do you still remember me?" I said, "No, where did we meet?" He said, "Last time I did the electrocardiogram for you." Some stories are just a coincidence. I asked, "Oh how is Dr. Wen?" He replied, "You have done harm to Dr. Wen. He was our most famous doctor. But when he treated you and told you face to face that you had a coronary heart disease, he was immediately transferred to a rural medical team. From then on, his future was ruined." So I am not the only one, many people had to pay a price.

I asked, he told me, and I wrote a letter. I had coronary heart disease and wrote another letter to the superiors. Deng Xiaoping became very smart then and had an idea: With my coronary heart disease, he didn't have to kill me directly, let God kill me, and he didn't have to take responsibility. So he issued an order. The eight most important political prisoners in Beijing Prison should not be allowed to stay in Beijing and be sent to other places. And where? To Qinghai. He added another condition: We should be sent to a labor camp at an altitude of more than 3,000 meters. Nobody understood. So when I arrived in Qinghai, all the labor reform teams refused to accept me and I had to stay in [the provincial capital] Xining for two or three months. All the reform-through-labor teams who refused to accept me and asked: What should we do if this person dies? Looked at the documents, they knew that I was the most famous political prisoner, more famous than those of the Cultural Revolution. But I already had a coronary heart disease. Anyone without such a disease might die of altitude sickness there, and someone with that disease could die easily. That’s why everyone refused to accept me and asked who would eventually be responsible for my death? But after two or three months, Deng Xiaoping finally approved it. He just told them in a short sentence: You will not be responsible. And he signed this. This way, the labor reform teams above 3,000 meters altitude dared to accept me. Otherwise, they would not have dared, fearing that I might probably die.

Interviewer: How long did you stay in Qinghai?

Wei: More than four years.

Interviewer: What then?

Wei: I was sent to Hebei province. Arriving to Qinghai before was also quite interesting. The Labor Reform Bureau and the Justice Bureau both sent a cadre to accompany me and sit with me in the car. When we were gradually driving higher and higher, driving a bit and stopping again, they said: "Wei Jingsheng, get off and pee." I didn't pay attention at first and just got out to pee. When we were very high already, they looked at me all the time and said, "Wei, are you okay?" I answered, "No problem," and they said, "Do you feel anything bad about your body?" I said, "No." On the way to the Tibetan area, we drove across a very high mountain pass, called Riyue Pass [3520 m]. When we reached to the top, they asked me again, "Get off to pee once more." I had already peed four or five times along the way, so why again, I thought. When they saw that I was walking steadily and that nothing was wrong, they felt relieved and started chatting with me. What made Deng Xiaoping very disappointed was that I was naturally able to adapt to the climate of the high plateau and showed no reaction. That made him angry to death.

How did I get to know this story? In 1985, before Hu Yaobang visited Tibet and Qinghai, I wrote a letter to him, talking about the Tibetan issue, and also mentioned that my treatment was very poor. I had various diseases and needed physical exams, but they would not give me any medical treatment. In Qinghai, Hu Yaobang stayed for two days, and he spent half a day talking to people from the judicial system.

Interviewer: You are also very dedicated to the issue of Tibet, right?

Wei: Yes, I have always been concerned about it. I had almost become a scholar studying the Tibet question, but later because of interventions by others, I was squeezed out. After Hu had listened to reports, he gave an important instruction which saved my life: "Wei Jingsheng and other political prisoners seem to be sick. In the spirit of revolutionary humanitarianism, he should have been released on parole for medical treatment. But everyone knows that under the current situation, medical parole is not an option. However, we need not treat him like a prisoner, but we should arrange his living and medical care in the same way as for an ordinary worker." Our labor reform team was happy, but they were also afraid, because not only did I have a coronary heart disease, but also a number of other diseases, including broken teeth, eating disorder, etc. With this instruction, things would be easier to handle for them in the future. However, there seemed to be one difficulty, when they examined the instructions. No problem with the medical treatment, but as for the spirit of revolutionary humanitarianism, there was the issue of payment and refund.

I was told that the labor reform team, to follow Hu Yaobang's instructions, was to receive an off-road vehicle from the Ministry of Justice, so that I could be sent to Xining immediately if I had any problems. They also agreed with me that the car would be left on site for our use. If I had any problems, we could be driven there at any time. I told them, "That doesn't matter. I don't need to go every day. I'm in prison, so you may use it as you wish." They answered, "But there is a problem that is difficult to solve. We want to discuss it with you." I thought this was strange. What were they discussing with me? I was a prisoner and they were police. But he insisted: "This is a matter to be discussed with you." Of course I wanted to find out what they meant, as this was also one of my sources. They said: "Look, Comrade Yaobang was here, and he left this instruction. Medical treatment is easy, but life is difficult. You are in a small separate prison, each person has a room, and that's it. The question of food is more difficult to handle." I said, "What's difficult?" They replied, "Because Comrade Xiaoping gave an instruction very early on when you first entered prison that the treatment of political prisoners such as Wei Jingsheng should not be better than for ordinary criminals." I said, "How do you know?" They said, "The original documents are all here with us." I replied, "Since Comrade Yaobang has left this instruction, you will have to decide, which one to implement. And who is your top leader" They responded: "Wei, don't create trouble for us. We are also eating from the same bowl of rice. So let’s discuss it, neither side can violate it. If we violate it, Comrade Xiaoping will take us down; otherwise, Comrade Yaobang might arrest us. We can't violate any of the two sides. Let's find a compromise. First of all, when we give you food, if the food in the prison is good, fish or meat, we will give you more. You may also buy something by yourself and cook it. In this way, your living conditions will catch up with those of ordinary workers." I said: "Then I would still have to pay for it myself? My brothers have no money. He replied: "There is really no other way. So let's do it like this. If you want to buy a sheep in the future, the state farm can give you a cheaper one, only half the market price." So I agreed: "Ok, let's do it this way, I also don’t want that you lose your jobs." We settled to this compromise. And I had got the very important information, that Hu Yaobang had saved my life. Later I was able to get implants for my teeth which helped me to eat properly which would have been difficult otherwise. I also received regular treatment for my various diseases. And as mentioned before, whatever medicine was needed, no matter how expensive it was, it had to be reimbursed. The Ministry of Justice had allocated funds, bought a car for me, and the labor reform team was very happy. So I was treated really well in Qinghai, at least according to local conditions, except that I wasn’t able to walk outside.

Interviewer: Did they ask you to take part in labor?

Wei: No, they didn’t let me. At first, when I raised a few rabbits, I asked to go out to collect grass for the rabbits. I just wanted to walk a bit, meeting people or seeing the scenery. The prison walls were very high, two floors, nothing could be seen, everything was just gray. When I later tried to go outside once and an armed policeman [paramilitary guard] saw me, their company commander came and told me: "I’ll help you." Me: "What can you help me with?" He replied, "If you cannot go out to cut weeds, we will do it for you." I said, "I want to go for fresh air, not just cut weeds." But he responded, "Take care of my comrades. There are orders from above, that when you go out, no one else should be within two hundred meters of you. As soon as you walk outside, I have to send a squad to follow you. That is hard for them, and they told me I should discuss with Wei, how this could be handled more easily, so that we need not follow you every day, two hundred meters forward, left, right." So I thought, forget it, I don’t want to make things difficult for them. It was quite weird. There were lots of stories back then.

Interviewer: I still have some questions about the current Democracy Movement overseas and in the US. What do you think about it, how do you analyze it?

Wei: Many people have an intuitive comment, many who are far away from the Democracy Movement. They say that this movement cannot be led by the children of 1989. Of course, they are not children anymore; they are all in their forties. But it doesn’t work out with them. Their ideological foundation is not solid. It is still the people of the Democracy Wall who can do it. Isn’t it true that the people who created the Democracy Wall have been doing this for decades? But the truth is that these people do not all have the same views either. And these differences started at the time of the Democracy Wall. But after all, many of us are still doing something.

There are two main reasons for the disunity in exile: First, China's democratic movement is somewhat different from other countries. During the Democracy Wall, many eyes were on the Communist Party. To put it bluntly, they wanted to become officials. There is an ancient term that still exists today, calling them the “zhao'an” faction. Do you understand what it means? If you were a bandit in ancient China, they tried to exterminate you. But when they couldn't, they recruited you and made you an official. That is the meaning of “zhao’an”. When you became an official in the imperial court, you brought all your fellow bandits and they became your army. In ancient China, this was a very important cultural feature.

At the time of our movement, Wang Juntao's "Beijing Spring" was too soft. It was all about making proposals and giving advice to the Communist Party. I might not know who they are, but a sentence is written above them, "If you want to be an official, you will be rewarded for killing people and setting fires," which is a quote from the classical novel "Water Margin". Exactly this happens in this novel, the bandits were finally recruited. In our reality it meant that ideologically these people attached great importance to the Communist Party and they placed their hopes in the Party. Wang Juntao has been thinking that way for many years; he has only changed recently. So the ideological basis has been different, which is one reason for disunity.

Not to mention that in 1989, the ideas were chaotic. Most of the people who escaped abroad were former government officials. Again these people’s ideological foundations were quite different. So the chance for unity has never been very big. Moreover, there are two special situations: Because China’s Democracy Movement [in exile] was very loud, so at the beginning, many organizations granted money. The United States, Taiwan, also the Communist Party, they all gave money, and they all wanted something in exchange for it. If one donor supported your organization with money, and you still listened to Wei Jingsheng, this would not please the donor. So this is also a reason why we cannot all sit together in unity. After all, everyone needs to eat, and Wei Jingsheng has no money to feed everyone. Some have their own jobs, they work on their own. We are many. Some are determined to follow me. Others work on their own to earn money, some have their small businesses, but devote some time to work with Wei.

Some like Liu Qing, cannot work with us because they have to listen to others, to the Americans, to Taiwan, and some even to the Communists. Many organizations who call themselves pro-democracy, really cannot unite with us, no way. Often they just do not dare to mess around with me. But first, they cannot compare with me. And secondly, I am also a fierce person. If you oppose me, I will not be so polite with you. That is why no one stands up against me. Still there are quite a lot of people who work with me, a large number in many countries. But as soon as they become more famous and have their own financial sources, they may be not willing any more to work with me.

The third very important reason is that the Communist send many spies to sneak into our groups and cause trouble on our side. The same happened during the Nazi period, right? Create fake activists who sneak into the resistance organizations, and then kill them all, this is an old trick. Of course the Communists have sent many people to infiltrate us, stir things up and sow discord between us.

Interviewer: Have you ever discovered Communist Party spies?

Wei: Too many. Among today's activists, I know one who is. I know all the units behind them. But one cannot say it publicly, because even if you know it, you might not have enough evidence. Back in China, many of this generation were my classmates, but this generation was different. We were all against Mao Zedong, we went to jail together, served as soldiers together, and were sent to the countryside together. So these people were closely interconnected and are now the so-called princelings [children of high-ranking cadres]. I knew many of them, but how can I know who is a little spy they’ve sent here? When I don't know, they might still come and tell me. Today’s Communists also like to keep an escape route for themselves. But you can't say these things publicly, and after all, you have no evidence. And you can't say who has told you.

Interviewer: When your generation came out from China, it seems that various institutions, including some from the United States and Taiwan, provided you with quite a lot of money. Do you have the impression that payments have become less?

Wei: It’s less than before. Many non-governmental foundations have a very realistic approach when they give money. If you are hot now, if you are a prime target at a given moment, the funds will flow there; if you are no longer a prime target, the money will go elsewhere. They also want to maintain a good reputation in front of their donors. So now, most pro-democracy organizations have very little funds. The richest now are probably groups who tell foreigners that they are pro-democracy, and to the [overseas] Chinese, that they are not of a pro-democracy group, like Harry Wu [Wu Hongda] and his Laogai [Reform through Labor] Foundation. You should also visit him. Although he did not directly participate in the Democracy Wall, he has achieved a lot of things later on, including setting up this Laogai Foundation which has been a certain success. He has taken care of the fate of many people in China, including some from the Democracy Wall. The information he has collected is quite comprehensive, and he has a lot of money. After a successful lawsuit, he has received more than 20 million in one go.

Interviewer: Does Taiwan still give a lot of money?

Wei: Very little. Since the DPP [pro-independence party] came to power, they thought that they should not support the mainland's democracy movements. Many of them say: "Should the pro-democracy movement come to power, China will democratize, and they will oppose Taiwan independence even more." They believe that most people in China do not accept Taiwan’s independence, so they do not want to support China's pro-democracy movement.

Interviewer: So that’s the Taiwan independence people?

Wei: Yes, and the more they support Taiwan’s independence, the more they are holding such extreme views. Personally they have good relations with me. When I see them, they invite me for drinks, and when I leave, they invite me for more drinks. Everyone is very polite in front of me. None of the Taiwanese politicians dares to offend me, and ordinary Taiwanese like me a lot. However, I also know their stance that they cannot support the mainland pro-democracy movement. Lee Teng-hui [KMT, Taiwan’s president 1988-2000] was also like that. He didn’t want to support us, because feared that the mainland pro-democracy movement would oppose Taiwan’s independence in the future. That’s why when Chen Shui-bian [DPP, president 2000-2008] came to power, there was almost no support for pro-democracy movements in exile any more.

Interviewer: What about Ma Ying-jeou [KMT, president 2008-2016]?

Wei: Ma Ying-jeou is even more so. He says it in a different way; that he did not want to offend the Mainland and wanted to have a good relationship with the Communist Party. Even Taiwanese people joke that he would become “Governor Ma of the Taiwan Special Administrative Region” [under Beijing’s rule]. You can see, he is getting ever closer to the Communists, so he will definitely not support us.

Interviewer: Has the Communist Party caused any specific damage to your democracy movement? Can you feel any such damage?

Wei: First of all, many of their people have infiltrated pro-democracy organizations, and some have risen to quite important positions. I didn’t want to believe it first. In Beijing, when I had been released from prison in 1993, all my friends came to treat me, including some heads of the intelligence system who also invited me. They were all former classmates. They told me: "Jingsheng, now you are free, you absolutely must not contact the overseas pro-democracy movement." I replied: "Why, for what reason should I not have contacts?" He: "I tell you the truth, our spies are all over there. So I don’t want you to. They are all my buddies. When the time comes, you will be punished by my agents. So don’t do it.” Me: “It can’t be that serious.” I deliberately tried to trick him, and he said: “Every month we hold a meeting to exchange information, several intelligence agencies come together and report on their activities. Many of the leaders of your democracy movement are our people." I replied: "That's impossible." And he: "Believe me, many chairmen and vice-chairmen of the groups are our people."

Later, when I was in exile, I noted that this was not fake, but real. When they started with their method, I had not been out yet, it was ten years before. The disunity of the Democracy Movement was very obvious then. There were two organizations, first of all, those who left China in 1989 were unwilling to be with the "China Democratic Solidarity Alliance" [established in the US in 1983] because they felt it was anti-communist, but they were not anti-communist. Some rebelled from inside, emphasizing they were not anti-communist. So some of those exiled in 1989 went to Paris to establish an organization called "Democratic Front" [founded in September 1989]. After a few years, when it seemed impossible not to be anti-communist, they gradually started leaning to the anti-communist side.

Later, we thought that we should unite and not stay divided like this. The “Alliance” was older and founded in the 80s. So the 1989 people suggested merging. They held a conference in 1990. But some participants manipulated it. Some were sowing dissent, taking advantage of many people's selfish motives. Everyone was fighting about who should become chairman, using this rivalry to provoke further. In the end it was a complete mess, and the two organizations turned into three organizations. Originally, the coalition should be called the "Democratic United Front" [formed January 18, 1993], but neither of the former two recognized this "Democratic United Front", and eventually it became three organizations.

A few years later, they again tried to find a way to unite. The three organizations should merge to end the split. But as a result, the three organizations “united” into five organizations. There were regular quarrels and fights in the meetings, and it got very serious. So in those years, everyone was drawn into such skirmishes, no one was doing serious business. And every time this became a success for the Communists.

I really believed now what my classmate had told me. Although I say classmates, we were not from the same school, but we were all anti-Mao rebels during the Cultural Revolution, and I was a chief, that’s how we all knew each other. We were friends, and called ourselves “classmates”. As soon as I had left China, people tried to lobby me. Most were agents of the Communist Party. We must form a great alliance, build great unity, and damage our groups. They told me to set up an organization that we would all join. I didn't accept this proposal. I said that our original organizations were still retained, and we had a joint meeting, where people from every organization sat together regularly to discuss, like it used to be at the Democracy Wall. I thought this was a good way to prevent these people from coming and causing trouble.

Interviewer: Do you still have hope that you can go back to China one day?

Wei: That would have to be in the near future. I recently got seriously ill, but I survived it. If you survive a calamity, you will be blessed later. So I feel very happy. Now the Communists have no ways to solve their internal problems or the problems of Chinese society, so their collapse may be very quick. You don’t know where it will start breaking down, just like a balloon that has inflated so much that you don’t know where it will burst. But you can be sure that it will burst. At most, you can add a little pressure to make it burst.

Interviewer: If you are able return, for example if the current system is collapsing relatively quickly, what role could you play then in a future China? What would you be able to achieve?

Wei: Many Western politicians, from Austria, Germany, Europe, the United States, could invite me to public events and introduce me as the future president of China. Wang Xizhe dislikes this very much. Because he thinks he should himself become the future president.

Interviewer: What do you think?

Wei: First, I don’t want to be the future president. Imagine, I almost got executed that time, how could I be the president, right? Second, if the Communist Party rule in China collapses in the future, the situation will definitely become quite unpleasant. Whoever becomes president will have a thankless job. Why should I then want to be president? Even over here, at meetings of the "Autonomous Students Union", one of the oldest democratic institutions here, a firmly anti-communist friend come over at a dinner and said, "Wei, I want to ask you something in private." Me: "What is it?" Him: "If we can return in the future and you become the president, will you allow us to take revenge?" I answered: "What grudge do you have?" He said: "My family has been ruined." My answer was: "I'll tell you the truth..."

In Norway they have a so-called "Nobel Prize Committee" with a very secretive non-governmental sub-committee. It’s very small, but it has direct influence. They are all former politicians or scholars. When they were asking me questions, they also asked this one. I could only say: "I will definitely not let anyone take revenge. There might be need for revenge, but it will definitely not be lethal and bloody." I told the Little Nobel Committee, that maybe, when the time comes, it will not be possible to completely prevent bloodshed. […] Those guys had said the same thing. I told them, I can't let you take revenge. If China is becoming a river of blood, I will advise everyone to be gentler and more tolerant, and not to take comprehensive revenge. If you want to take revenge for everything, then there would be such a deadly river of blood. And things will repeat, a second time and a third time. If you ask for revenge, others will also want revenge."

"Then I won't elect you to be president. I will choose whoever lets us take revenge. I choose Wang Bingzhang." At that time, Wang Bingzhang [another activist in exile] called to engage in armed struggle. I told him: That's up to you, I don't want to be your president, it's a thankless job. Even you are against me. If I don’t let you kill people then, what are you going to do? Even if you don't do it, you will be against me. "Those people are also against me, right? So I might as well not be the president. Whoever becomes the president will be doomed.” Why should I be the president then? But circumstances can change. If there is a possibility to grasp, I might as well take the responsibility. I would have to do it, there would be no other way. Like now in my state of health, it would be great to take a rest. But no way, I still have to do things. If I didn't, I would be sorry for the ordinary people. I have this responsibility, don’t I? Younger people are not willing to do it, people like Wang Dan and others. So I have to act myself.

The entire generation of young people from 1989 has a poor ideological foundation. It’s not that we, the older generation, look down on them. But nowadays, also those born in the 1980s and 1990s cannot come clear with them. Even their generation, grown up in the 1980s, has deformed ideas. The propaganda by Deng Xiaoping and the Communist Party particularly promoted individualism, self-enjoyment, and Jean-Paul Sartre’s philosophy that emphasizes the individual, etc., that’s what they were preaching. So the ideological foundation of that generation is very poor, and they were not willing to engage much after they had left China. They all wanted to study first, get a doctorate, and then start a business or something. No one is willing to take responsibility and become an activist. Take me, I am well-known, and I had to step forward to do many things. If others can't do it, then I have to do it. Wang Dan also has such qualification, but he is unwilling to do things. As soon as he had left China, I told him, don’t go to Harvard University, go to Georgetown University [in Washington DC], which is also a very good university. Here you can also be in contact with the Congress and the government’s diplomatic activities. That time, I was still busily traveling all over the world, but we could divide the work among the two of us. You are young and you could become president in the future, I told him. But he thought that getting a doctorate was more important than anything else. With a doctorate, he may become principal of Peking University in the future. So what can I say? I cannot blame anyone for his personal choice. We old men have to keep fighting, we cannot blame someone else.

The same thing happened when the Democratic Front held its first conference. They appointed each other to various posts and expressed requests, saying if you vote for me, you will be the Minister or Deputy Minister of Culture in the future. Deputy Ministers are below Ministers, but the Minister had already been promised to someone else. Many of those who came from China in 1989 were past government officials. Their basic ideas and their eyes were all fixed on the Communist Party, thinking that the Party could collapse within a few days, Zhao Ziyang [Secretary General of the CCP, arrested in 1989] would be liberated and we could all go back. So they tried their best to campaign for Zhao Ziyang. Over those years, many exiled Chinese were desperately supporting Zhao Ziyang. That was their daily dream. When Zhao comes back, we will also return. Then we will be promoted, and we can make our demands.

Like us, they want China to change, but they don’t have a strategy. Their thinking is fundamentally different from ours. But that’s how it is, we cannot change people. They are free to have their own ideas. You cannot convince them. They have all reached a certain age, how can you change their minds? Like Wang Juntao, he has been deceived by the Communists for decades, but he still believes in Communism. Even a small department chief can win him over, and he will do things for others and sully his hands. He did a lot of ugly things in exile, and now no one wants to be with him. If a Congressman is willing to meet with him, it would all be his personal business. Why? He was misled by the Communists, and they used him. But that was it; no one was interested in him. He has always been tricked by others. Only in recent years, he has slowly woken up and started to lean towards my position. Basically, he will also follow what I say.

From this example you can see that the origins of the democracy movement in exile are very complicated. It is simply impossible to unite everyone. When I came out and established the joint meetings, I had two principles. First, I told everyone if they followed me, they couldn’t expect any benefits. Just like me at the Democracy Wall, they should be prepared to lose their head. Of course no one will be killed, but don't expect any personal advantages. What we do is “make wedding clothes for others”. This is a saying from ancient China that you shouldn't make wedding clothes for others, but you should search benefits for yourself when doing something. But I told them, what we do is making wedding clothes for others, without thinking about personal benefits.

The second thing is, I don’t force anyone. Whoever wants to follow me, let’s get together. If you don’t want to, you can do whatever you want, and I won’t hinder you. Thus the rest of us remain quite united. When people hold meetings, if there are people from Taiwan or somewhere, even from the Communist Party, they may give tens of thousands of Euros to hold a meeting. I have no money at all, at most a few thousand bucks; everything will come from our donations. Participants from all over the world would buy their own air tickets and stay here in cheap youth hostels. This is how it happens every time. But in recent years, some friends have donated to pay for accommodation at the meetings, so that those attending can stay in decent hotels. These people are very determined, and use their own money to support Wei Jingsheng to do these things less cheaply. They are straight forward in their thinking, so our efficiency has become much better than in the previous ten years.

Almost nothing like this had been achieved in the previous ten years, that’s when the whole situation quickly went backwards. Western governments no longer wanted to punish China; they rather wanted to do business. All the Western governments have retreated significantly in ten years. Under Clinton, the sanctions on China were completely lifted. They gave China such preferential treatment, including most-favored nation status, entry into the WTO, etc. They had already retreated that much. This severe situation made me decided that year that I should leave China and go overseas.

At that point, Clinton made a deal with China, saying that if Jiang Zemin wanted to visit the US, he must let Wei Jingsheng go. In the negotiations, they initially asked, "Can we just let Wang Dan go?" No. Of course Wang Dan must be released, and Wei Jingsheng must be released as well. That is imperative. The person who went to negotiate at that time was a sinologist, he spoke Chinese very well. He worked for the White House then and was sent to negotiate. Later we became good friends, and he told me the whole process during a private dinner. In the end, Jiang Zemin [then Party Chairman] had no choice but to let me go. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to get out.

During the negotiation, I actually didn’t want to leave at first. It seemed better to me if I could stay in China. But the CCP said no. Later I thought maybe that’s what they had decided with the United States. I said, "If I should really leave, I would like to go to Germany, where my sister lives." "No, you have to go to the United States." Speaking openly, they negotiated and exchanged conditions.

Of course I also think that it was good that I could come out, because I became able to make pressure internationally. International pressure is very effective; it can protect people inside, so that domestic activists have more space to do things. Without pressure from the international community, those people would not have much space to move. This also made me decide to leave. They just stuffed me on the plane and took me directly to the United States. My visa was only stamped on my passport after arriving in the US. At first, they didn’t give my passport to the US people nor to me. Only at the boarding gate, when I was about to board the plane, they handed it to me.

Interviewer: Two more questions.

Wei: No problem, you ask.

Interviewer: First, during June 4, 1989, you were still in prison and in Qinghai. How did you find out about the events around June 4th?

Wei: I could watch it on TV, but I have to tell this story from the beginning. In fact, in autumn 1988, it was the time to buy sheep, because in winter we wouldn’t be able to buy any for meat. In pastoral areas, sheep are killed in autumn, never in winter, because the winter sheep have to be kept until next year. Then a policeman came and told me quietly: "Wei, you don't need to buy sheep this year." I asked: "Why?" He said: "You can go home for National Day [Oct.1]." I said: "How do you know?" Him: "Just listen to me, it's true. Arrangements have been made from above to release you soon. You should be able to leave the Qinghai labor camp before National Day." On National Day, I asked them: "What's going on?" They said, "Don't worry, something may have gone wrong. But you may go home for the New Year." When the New Year came, I asked again, "What's going on?" They said, "There's nothing we can do. I don’t know, they may have changed their minds, maybe for the Spring Festival.” When the Spring Festival was over, I asked again, but they couldn’t tell me anything. At that time, the issue of Fang Lizhi [a famous astrophysicist who supported liberal ideas] came up.

Later, after I had been freed, I heard that Deng Xiaoping thought that there was no point to keep me any longer. My stay in prison was also uncomfortable for him, and he was scolded for it every day. He also felt that this affair was over. Forget it, release him. No need to continue this fight. He was ready for letting me go. Everyone in the government knew about this, so someone asked Fang Lizhi to write a letter [to Deng]. It was a person in a very high position, a member of the Standing Committee of the Politburo representing [Party leader] Zhao Ziyang. This letter demanded the release of Wei Jingsheng. This matter cannot be settled otherwise, it said, so let him go, we are powerful. So Fang Lizhi wrote this letter. If you don't let him go, you will continue to be criticized and you might be in trouble. The political struggle was very brutal at that time. Once Fang Lizhi's had written this letter, the debate stopped. Deng Xiaoping was hesitant. When things had gotten to this point and Wei was released, Zhao Ziyang would want to use him. Should I then let him go? No. So it stopped there.

It stopped until August 1989, after the June 4th Incident had passed. I was sent to Hebei province then, but the reform-through-labor office in Hebei didn't want to take care of me. After I had stayed for maybe a year or two, their general manager told me, "Wei, why do you stay here with us?" I asked, "Who wanted me to stay with you?" He said, "When you came here, I told you to adapt to the different local climate for two or three months before returning home. Why do you stay here for so long?" I answered, "You have to ask your superiors." That’s how I got to know it. In fact, I had already planned to adapt to the climate in this labor camp for two or three months and then go home. But the process did not advance. Back to 1989. From the time Fang Lizhi wrote his letter, the conflicts between Deng Xiaoping and Zhao Ziyang became more and more acute, and as for my case, everything stopped.

Then the whole 1989 events gradually unrolled. I watched them on TV and got to understand the situation quite well. That time, people say, was the most open period for Chinese media. Everyone was supporting this student movement, including the scene of the young man blocking the tank near Beijing Station, as people said. In fact, when we saw such scenes on TV, it was at Muxidi [Western districts]. People were wearing more or less the same clothes, blue pants, white shirts, carrying schoolbags. There were many brave young people at that time. .

We also had a little story in the labor camp. The police staff was also very worried about where China was heading for. Because our place was way out in the wilderness, the labor camp office had to install a transmitter station to be able to watch TV. And there was a rule that we could only watch TV after 6:30 p.m. for the central news broadcast. After watching that, there were communist propaganda programs, and the TV had to be turned off at nine o'clock. But a group of young police officers was unhappy with this. They took sacks and sticks and went to the transmitter station. They asked the head of the station, "Why are you doing this? You turn off TV every night, and we are missing out many things we want to watch. We like to discuss this with you. This sack is pretty good. Do you want to stay in it for a while?" The man was frightened and said, "I don't care anymore." He turned on the transmitter, twenty-four hours. He locked the door and threw the key on the roof. "If the superiors want to say something, it will have nothing to do with me. You forced me to do this." In fact, the superiors never came to complain to him. They also liked to watch, to see where China was heading for. So the broadcast station remained open 24 hours a day, and we watched almost 24 hours a day. Everyone was very thrilled, including the old police officers over there. When they saw the students negotiating with Li Peng, they stamped their feet...

Interviewer: Could you also watch it then?

Wei: Yes, I watched all; there were live broadcasts all the time. The old police officers all stomped their feet and said, "Oh, Wei Jingsheng, it would be better if you were there. Those people don't quite understand things. If you talked like this, there would definitely be shooting." Many, because they were old and they knew their trade, though that if things continued like this, would definitely end in shooting. One said: " Wei, I wish you were there." I responded: "Then just let me go now." The answer was, "I do not dare." You can see, the whole country was upside down then. For various reasons, everyone was leaning towards the students. So Deng Xiaoping, to be honest, had no other option. If he hadn’t called for the army, he would have definitely been doomed, and everyone just wanted him to be doomed.

But there was a very irresponsible person, that was Zhao Ziyang. One word from him, and Deng Xiaoping wouldn’t have had the power to fight back. Because even Deng Xiaoping’s old subordinates sided with Zhao Ziyang. The whole country was on Zhao’s side. He was in a position to speak out, just like Gorbachev, he was the nominal supreme leader. Although actually it was Deng Xiaoping, but Zhao could have used his nominal position [as party leader], and everyone would have been on his side, he would have become the actual top decision-maker, right? But he didn’t stand with his responsibility and was unwilling to do it. Giving up his responsibility, he could only leave it to Deng Xiaoping to do it. Deng Xiaoping also hesitated for a long time, for two months from April to June. He knew very well in his heart that if he did this, he would be blamed for it forever. All former good deeds would have been wiped out in one stroke, and he would be nailed to the pillar of shame. He understood this, but this older generation of Communists also had a spirit of sacrifice. So he thought that he rather bore this crime in order not to let the Communist Party collapse. In fact, Zhao Ziyang also thought so to a certain extent. He thought I let them do whatever they wanted. He said so, but not in public, to his advisers: I won’t object to whatever they do, but I won’t do it myself. So at the most critical moment in history, he gave up his responsibility. This ultimately led to such a huge disaster.